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[WA] 自由党议员们呼吁特别人道主义引进10000名南非农场主 [复制链接]

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发表于 2018-4-11 10:52 |显示全部楼层
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博闻 发表于 2018-4-11 10:47
你去看看判罪犯胜诉的案例里有几个是华人?谢连斌案在几乎没证据的情况下还判了有罪。 ...

你不能只提華人啊, 不然,你就是種族歧視了.
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发表于 2018-4-11 11:00 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 cycwong21 于 2018-4-11 21:47 编辑

早批从南非来澳洲逃难的白人移民,在澳洲都有不错的发展,努力多年,资产值甚高并爱捐善。

赞成政府收他们做难民,比收 MSL 和非洲黑人强。

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发表于 2018-4-11 11:13 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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博闻 发表于 2018-4-11 10:46
相比吃我的和小概率的砍我,我更担心大概率的推动澳洲走白澳回头路。

白澳就是你们穆斯林忽悠论坛借口,穆斯林是全人类的毒瘤。

发表于 2018-4-11 11:23 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 footwear 于 2018-4-11 11:27 编辑
sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 09:38
會啊, 而且必須這麼說, 因為當時自由黨答應了工黨的要求實行白澳政策, 總不能一邊實行白澳政策,一邊說人 ...


你这就是胡搅蛮缠了,他如果不支持白澳政策完全可以以其他条件和工党交换,政治就是交换利益,而且就算答应了也不会说出那种种族歧视的话,我只看到自由党的鼻祖欣然的推行了白澳政策而且还为白澳政策制造出一条歪理-“平等不适用于英国人和中国人之间”
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发表于 2018-4-11 11:40 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 sdcmc 于 2018-4-11 11:43 编辑
footwear 发表于 2018-4-11 11:23
你这就是胡搅蛮缠了,他如果不支持白澳政策完全可以以其他条件和工党交换,政治就是交换利益,而且就算答 ...


你这就是胡搅蛮缠了,他如果不支持白澳政策完全可以上不了台, 你不是他, 你如何知道他當時有沒有嘗試做過其他交易? 但這不重要,最重要的,是白澳政策是工黨先提出來的. 而當時的自由黨, 本來並沒有要實行白澳政策的計畫, 這點沒有爭論,毫無疑問.

发表于 2018-4-11 11:47 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 11:40
你这就是胡搅蛮缠了,他如果不支持白澳政策完全可以上不了台, 你不是他, 你如何知道他當時有沒有嘗試做過 ...

政治有那么多交换的筹码,如果真的跟自己的价值观有冲突就不会接受这种妥协,你怎么又知道他有做出努力而不是欣然接受呢?而且从他后来的态度和话语中就看的出他很可能是欣然接受,那句“平等不适用于中国人和英国人”你再怎么绕也绕不出是出自他口,也绕不出白澳政策是由自由党的鼻祖推广立法的。
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南非白人对其他有色人种的敌视无与伦比,我个人认为,如果澳洲再引进南非白人,对澳洲现有的其他族裔,是一个非常不幸的事情。
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发表于 2018-4-11 11:52 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 sdcmc 于 2018-4-11 11:53 编辑
footwear 发表于 2018-4-11 11:47
政治有那么多交换的筹码,如果真的跟自己的价值观有冲突就不会接受这种妥协,你怎么又知道他有做出努力而 ...


對,我不知道, 你也不知道. 我們只知道當時是工黨對自由黨提出了要實行白澳政策,對嗎? 而不是自由黨對工黨提出了白澳政策, 難道不是?

发表于 2018-4-11 11:57 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 11:52
對,我不知道, 你也不知道. 我們只知道當時是工黨對自由黨提出了要實行白澳政策,對嗎? 而不是自由黨對工黨 ...

我只知道那时候的自由党前身推行了白澳政策,制定为国策,而且还公开说“平等不适用于英国人和中国人”,另外一位当时的自由党鼻祖说“中国人和日本人是威胁”,对吗?
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发表于 2018-4-11 12:00 |显示全部楼层
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footwear 发表于 2018-4-11 11:57
我只知道那时候的自由党前身推行了白澳政策,制定为国策,而且还公开说“平等不适用于英国人和中国人”, ...


奇怪,你怎麼看後面不看前面嗎? 不答應工黨的要求, 自由黨如何有資格制定国策啊? 先有工黨提出的白澳政策. 然後才有之後的一切, 所以白澳政策的始作俑者是工黨,這點沒得洗. 不然你跟我說,先有孩子,再有老子? 要不,你比你爸先出世?

发表于 2018-4-11 12:04 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 12:00
奇怪,你怎麼看後面不看前面嗎? 不答應工黨的要求, 自由黨如何有資格制定为国策啊?  先有工黨提出的 ...


奇怪,我说的话你怎么老是选择性无视?如果这条理论和自由党的价值观相左,为什么不去以其他利益交换而就这么容易的同意了?而且从当时自由党前身的两位大佬的态度看来,一个说平等不适用于中国人和英国人,另一个说日本人和中国人是威胁,白澳政策也会被保守党制定为国策
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发表于 2018-4-11 12:09 |显示全部楼层
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footwear 发表于 2018-4-11 12:04
奇怪,我说的话你怎么老是选择性无视?如果这条理论和自由党的价值观相左,为什么不去以其他利益交换而就 ...

选择性无视的是你吧?現在討論的是谁先提出實行白澳政策?你老說之後的事,有屁用? 沒有因,何來果?老子都沒有,孩子哪裡來?

发表于 2018-4-11 13:17 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 软件工人 于 2018-4-11 13:33 编辑

The immigration debate in Australia: from Federation to World War One
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Par ... 3/ImmigrationDebate

联邦国会网站上清清楚楚地写着1901年白澳法案通过的过程。

1. 在联邦白澳法案出台之前,各州已经有地方性白澳法规以限制中国移民。

2. 首届国会几乎是全票支持白澳政策,不仅仅是执政党保护主义党和工党,还包括了反对党自由贸易党。

3. 各党对于白澳政策的分歧并不在于该不该实施白澳政策,而在于如何在不得罪英国的情况下更有效地实施白澳政策。

Immigration measures pre-1901
Prior to Federation, it was the responsibility of colonial governments to manage overseas migration. A number of colonies had already enacted legislation to restrict the entry of Chinese people before 1901. This was due in part to the increasing violence between white Australians and Chinese migrants who, since the 1850s, had travelled to Australia in search of gold. Colonial governments were so concerned about the influx of Chinese migrants that they discussed ways to prohibit Chinese immigration at the Intercolonial Conferences of 1880, 1888 and 1896.[2]

Initially, colonial governments restricted Chinese migration based upon shipping tons, accepting one Chinese migrant for every ten tons of a ship’s burden. By 1888 this ratio had increased to one migrant for every 500 tons.[3] Short of national legislation prohibiting the entry of Chinese migrants, the shipping ton quota effectively prevented the majority of Chinese migration to Australia.[4]

A number of the colonial governments also introduced written tests to restrict non-white immigration. This was a significant development because from 1901 federal parliamentarians considered the written applications, in addition to immigration restriction laws in Natal, South Africa (1897) and New Zealand (1899), to be the basis from which the soon-to-be introduced Immigration Restriction Act 1901 could be strengthened.[5]

The written test contained in the Immigration Restriction Act 1901 was more rigorous than those administered by the New South Wales (1898), Tasmanian (1898) and West Australian (1897) colonies, in that it required applicants to undertake a dictation test.[6] Historian Myra Willard, in her account of the White Australia policy, explained that the dictation test was a more effective measure to restrict immigration than existing colonial legislation: ‘The elasticity of the method [to exclude immigrants] was thus increased, and any evasion of it by sham knowledge was made practically impossible’.[7]

In 1900, section 51(xxvii) of the Australian Constitution granted the powers of immigration and emigration to the Australian Parliament, although a number of state governments conducted migration assistance schemes into the early twentieth century.[8]

Immigration Restriction Act 1901
The Immigration Restriction Act 1901 was one of the first pieces of legislation passed by the Australian Government to deal with immigration. It restricted the migration of non-British peoples to Australia and symbolised the birth of what came to be known as the White Australia policy.[9] The Act prohibited the entry of any person who failed to write out a passage of 50 words in any European language as dictated by a Customs officer.[10]

Parliamentary debate over the legislation was not about whether it was morally wrong to restrict non-white immigration. Senators and members were almost exclusively concerned with whether the dictation test would achieve the objective of prohibiting non-white immigration to Australia without being seen to contradict the British Government’s stated commitment to non-discrimination on racial grounds.[11]

A number of members argued that the Bill should explicitly ban people on the basis of their race.[12] The Acting Leader of the Opposition, William McMillan (FT), [13] was a strong supporter of this position:

It is better for us, if we are to deal with this question at all, to put in an Act of Parliament exactly what we mean. What we mean ... is that we will prevent any large infiltration of alien elements into the component parts of our national life, and that we will preserve pure for all time the British element with which we started.[14]

There were few members who did not agree with the purpose of the Bill. Those members who objected to an explicit ban of non-white races did so on the grounds that the British Government was opposed to racial discrimination. [15]  When introducing the Bill, Prime Minister Edmund Barton (PROT) warned that prohibiting immigrants because of the colour of their skin could affect Australia’s relations with Britain:

It is not a desirable thing in our legislation to make discriminations which will complicate the foreign relations of the Empire. It would be of untold evil and harm to us—and likely to lead to troubles even rivalling those which the future may bring forth to us from these causes.[16]

William McMillan, who was forthcoming in his views on race, articulated the crux of the new Parliament’s position:

We must undoubtedly see that we should do nothing to wilfully interfere with that union between ourselves and the country from which we have sprung, which is not merely one of affection or one of race, but one also of mutual interest. On the other hand we must recollect the great and impressive fact that we are a people situated practically in the eastern seas ... We must also recollect that the northern portion of our continent lies in close proximity to millions and millions of people of an alien and servile character.[17]

It is clear from members’ speeches that the Immigration Restriction Bill was about racial exclusion. William McMillan spoke about the desire ‘to prevent any alien or servile races from so occupying large territories in Australia, as to mix and interfuse, not merely among themselves, but with our own people’.[18] The Leader of the Australian Labor Party, John Christian Watson, also expressed his concerns about ‘racial contamination’, declaring:

The objection I have to the mixing of these coloured people with the white people of Australia ... lies in the main in the possibility and probability of racial contamination ... The racial aspect of the question [to restrict migration to Australia], in my opinion, is the larger and more important one.[19]

Members who spoke about the ‘purity’ of the white race were expressing their belief in the superiority of white people. Prime Minister Barton affirmed this position by declaring that democratic principles of equality did not extend to race:

I do not think either that the doctrine of the equality of man was really ever intended to include racial equality. There is no racial equality. There is that basic inequality. These races are, in comparison with white races—I think no one wants convincing of this fact—unequal and inferior. The doctrine of the equality of man was never intended to apply to the equality of the Englishman and the Chinaman. There is a deep-set difference, and we see no prospect and no promise of its ever being effaced. Nothing in this world can put these two races upon an equality [sic]. Nothing we can do by cultivation, by refinement, or by anything else will make some races equal to others.[20]

Underlying these comments was the fear of invasion. Prime Minister Barton warned that the dangers of invasion would become ‘inevitable’ if Australia was not ‘careful’. [21] During his second reading speech, Prime Minister Barton quoted extensively from Professor Charles Pearson’s National Life and Character: a Forecast, which predicted the territorial and economic expansion of the ‘black and yellow races’. He quoted verbatim:

The day will come, and perhaps is not far distant, when the European observer will look round to see the globe girdled with a continuous zone of the black and yellow races ... We shall wake to find ourselves elbowed and hustled, and perhaps even thrust aside by peoples whom we looked down upon as servile, and thought of as bound always to minister to our needs ... Is that not something to guard against? We are guarding the last part of the world in which the higher races can live and increase freely for the higher civilization.[22]

The Attorney-General, Alfred Deakin (PROT), who posited that ‘the unity of Australia is nothing, if that does not imply a united race’, used the rhetoric of national survival to emphasise the considered gravity of the task at hand:

We here find ourselves touching the profoundest instinct of individual or nation—the instinct of self-preservation—for it is nothing less than the national manhood, the national character, and the national future that are at stake.[23]

In the same speech, Deakin mentioned the ‘coloured races’ surrounding Australia that were ‘inclined to invade our shores’.[24]

The possibility that migrant labourers would usurp Australian jobs was another reason members supported the Bill. Malcolm McEacharn (PROT), when moving an amendment to replace ‘English language’ with a ‘European language’, stated: ‘I recognise that if Japanese can come here in any large number, they will compete at low rates with white labour, and I will be no party to that’.[25]

John Watson (ALP) warned that ‘coloured undesirables’ were not only taking the jobs of white labourers, but were also thriving business owners:

At the present time in Sydney, we have whole streets which are practically given up to the businesses conducted by Chinese, Syrians, and other coloured aliens, and one cannot go today into more than five towns of any importance in the country districts of New South Wales without finding two, three, or perhaps half-a-dozen coloured storekeepers apparently doing a thriving business.[26]

For Watson, this activity was a sign that Asian invasion was underway and made the task before the Parliament so much more pressing:

In each and every avenue of life we find the competition of the coloured races insidiously creeping in, and if we are to maintain the standard of living we think necessary, in order that our people may be brought up with a degree of comfort, and with scholastic advantages which will conduce to the improvement and general advancement of the nation, some pause must be made in regard to the extension of the competition of the coloured aliens generally.[27]

One member of parliament who did not believe the rhetoric about Asian invasion was Arthur Bruce Smith (FT). He expressed his opinion on the Bill:

The public have been told over and over again that the purity and whiteness of the Australian Commonwealth is being endangered by the incursion of these hordes of Asiatics. I say that it is a fable; that it is altogether a fairy story.[28]

Smith’s speech, exceptional for its objection to the rhetoric of Asian invasion, supported the Japanese Consul-General’s argument that the Japanese people were of a higher standard of civilisation than African, Pacific Islander and other Asian people. Therefore, Smith believed that Japanese people should be treated as equal to Europeans.[29] From Smith’s perspective, members stoked fears of invasion because it was politically expedient: ‘I venture to say that a large part of the scare is founded upon a desire to make political capital by appealing to some of the worst instincts in some of the more credulous of the people’.[30]

Given the almost uniform consensus regarding immigration restrictions, it is perhaps unsurprising that the Leader of the Opposition, George Reid (FT), distanced himself from Smith’s statements, stating: ‘I suppose there is not a single member of this Chamber who does not honestly desire to prevent the influx of a large number of the coloured races of the world’. [31]

Reid’s comments were substantiated by the successful passage of the Bill through both Houses of Parliament. The Immigration Restriction Bill received Royal Assent on 23 December 1901.
论坛发帖对事不对人,得罪之处请见谅!

发表于 2018-4-11 14:21 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 12:09
选择性无视的是你吧?現在討論的是谁先提出實行白澳政策?你老說之後的事,有屁用? 沒有因,何來果?老子都沒 ...


是你自己在这里给实行白澳政策的自由党前身洗地才会扯出去那么远
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发表于 2018-4-11 14:24 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 sdcmc 于 2018-4-11 14:32 编辑
footwear 发表于 2018-4-11 14:21
是你自己在这里给实行白澳政策的自由党前身洗地才会扯出去那么远


我給实行白澳政策的自由党前身洗地?開玩笑,是有人先說自由黨是白澳政策的始作俑者,我才澄清的. 明明就是自由黨接受了工黨提出的白澳政策而得到了工黨的支持才能執政, 又不是自由黨接受了自由黨提出的白澳政策而得到了工黨的支持才能執政. 而且, 又不是我開的頭.
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发表于 2018-4-11 16:27 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 14:24
我給实行白澳政策的自由党前身洗地?開玩笑,是有人先說自由黨是白澳政策的始作俑者,我才澄清的. 明明就是 ...

这些人就是这个德性。整天搞白澳讹诈。
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发表于 2018-4-11 16:51 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 14:24
我給实行白澳政策的自由党前身洗地?開玩笑,是有人先說自由黨是白澳政策的始作俑者,我才澄清的. 明明就是 ...

你洗地的行为是来自尽力想把当时的保守党装扮的跟这件事毫无关系。如果白澳政策不符合当时保守党的价值观,他们为什么会拿出其他条件交换而去执行白澳政策?为什么自由党前身的总理和二号人物一再的发表种族言论,号称“平等不适用于英国人和中国人直之间?”如果是被逼出于无奈,为何还要上台一再发表种族主义观点,为这条明明不符合自己价值观的政策站台?

发表于 2018-4-11 17:14 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 14:24
我給实行白澳政策的自由党前身洗地?開玩笑,是有人先說自由黨是白澳政策的始作俑者,我才澄清的. 明明就是 ...

拜托你要点脸吧!上面的帖子白纸黑字明摆着呢。“有人先說自由黨是白澳政策的始作俑者”?谁说的?在哪一楼说的?明明你自己先在30楼说:

“白澳政策是工黨建議的,而當時自由黨能上台的原因就是因為對工黨提出的白澳政策的妥協. ”

在你之前根本没有人提过1901年白澳政策立法的话题。真是赤裸裸地造谣。

无论是你自己引用的维基百科还是国会网站上的记录都证实,在1901年联邦成立之前,新州、塔州和西澳就已经存在地方性白澳政策,并且当时控制新州和塔州议会的就是自由贸易党和保护主义党,所谓“白澳政策是工党建议的”完全是胡说八道。1901年国会讨论白澳法案时,不仅仅是工党和被你说成是“向工党妥协”的保护主义党,身为反对党的自由贸易党同样支持白澳主义,国会网站上的原话就是“几乎没有人不同意(白澳)法案的目的”。很清楚,实行白澳政策是当时议会各党的共识,区别仅仅在于实施手段和法律细节而已。

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发表于 2018-4-11 17:23 |显示全部楼层
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footwear 发表于 2018-4-11 16:51
你洗地的行为是来自尽力想把当时的保守党装扮的跟这件事毫无关系。如果白澳政策不符合当时保守党的价值观 ...

我有說過保守黨和這事沒關係嗎?  我只說了白澳主義, 工黨是始作俑者, 是主謀. 自由黨最多是幫兇罷了.
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发表于 2018-4-11 17:26 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 sdcmc 于 2018-4-11 17:40 编辑
软件工人 发表于 2018-4-11 17:14
拜托你要点脸吧!上面的帖子白纸黑字明摆着呢。“有人先說自由黨是白澳政策的始作俑者”?谁说的?在哪一 ...


22樓開始,你沒看到?難道30先於22?
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发表于 2018-4-11 17:31 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 sdcmc 于 2018-4-11 17:35 编辑

呵呵,工粉們一旦面對真實的歷史,果然惱羞成怒啊.   說到痛處, 忍受不了了. 不過, 貼子你能刪, 歷史你能刪嗎?
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发表于 2018-4-11 17:46 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 sdcmc 于 2018-4-11 23:29 编辑

出到無故刪貼, 已經證明了工粉們的理屈詞窮,你們自己樂著去吧. 不然,有膽解釋一下哪些字違規了嗎?而同樣的,先提出來的, 更粗鄙嘔心的工粉們的貼還健在啊.  







誰回我此貼誰是狗.

发表于 2018-4-11 17:47 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 17:26
22樓,你沒看到?難道30先於22?

22楼是反驳21楼的你没看到?难道22先于21?

楼上我贴的国会网站记录你看了吗?这才叫史实。
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发表于 2018-4-11 17:53 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 sdcmc 于 2018-4-11 23:28 编辑
软件工人 发表于 2018-4-11 17:47
22楼是反驳21楼的你没看到?难道22先于21?

楼上我贴的国会网站记录你看了吗?这才叫史实。 ...


21樓我寫的? 算了吧,這貼我是不回了, 你們工粉自己去樂吧,你們最厲害的就是言論管制,混淆視聽, 面對歷史事實,以為刪貼能改變歷史. 不過呢, 你們能刪貼,刪不了歷史真相, 堵不了悠悠眾口.





誰回我此貼誰是狗.

发表于 2018-4-11 17:53 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 17:23
我有說過保守黨和這事沒關係嗎?  我只說了白澳主義, 工黨是始作俑者, 是主謀. 自由黨最多是幫兇罷了 ...

按照你这个逻辑,自由党政府首先在四十年代接收难民那自由党是不是收难民的始作俑者?工党最多是帮凶罢了?

发表于 2018-4-11 17:56 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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自己国家经济越来越差,不想这些,净他妈四处放
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发表于 2018-4-11 20:32 |显示全部楼层
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sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 17:53
21樓我寫的?  算了吧,這貼我是不回了, 你們工粉自己去樂吧,你們最厲害的就是言論管制,混淆視聽, 面對 ...

大红字都出来了,是不是下一步就要喷血了?

发表于 2018-4-11 20:32 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 footwear 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 footwear 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 17:46
出到無故刪貼, 已經證明了工粉們的理屈詞窮,你們自己樂著去吧. 不然,有膽解釋一下哪些字違規了嗎?而同樣的, ...

你选择性无视我的回复好几次难道不是理屈詞窮

发表于 2018-4-11 21:53 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 cycwong21 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 cycwong21 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
XIAOTUDOU 发表于 2018-4-10 21:25
我有一个同事是从南非过来的。她说有一天有人一群人拿着枪开着车闯进她家,她们全家都躲在一间屋子里,她和 ...

多年前, 我的一位华人同事去南非玩,中国餐馆门口都聘有保安带枪防打劫。

旅游巴开车经过黑人区,要拉上窗帘,故作神秘,以保安全。
见此ID,果断评分

发表于 2018-4-11 22:31 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 软件工人 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 软件工人 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
本帖最后由 软件工人 于 2018-4-11 22:42 编辑
sdcmc 发表于 2018-4-11 17:53
21樓我寫的?  算了吧,這貼我是不回了, 你們工粉自己去樂吧,你們最厲害的就是言論管制,混淆視聽, 面對 ...


我又没说21楼是你发的,我驳斥的是你说“有人說自由黨是白澳政策的始作俑者”。21楼的自粉先说“白澳政策是工党搞出来的,自由党解除的“,22楼只是回了一句“反了的是你”,谁先谁后是清清楚楚的。

人能无耻到你这种地步也算奇葩了。你那几个被帖子为什么被删,你自己心里没数吗?在论坛上发帖子动不动拿别人爹妈妻儿说事,劝都劝不住,这是什么人品?你自己没有爹妈吗?你这种下三滥的做法,就不怕别人以牙还牙冒犯你爹妈吗?为什么你跟别人争论问题要把你爹妈扯进来当炮灰?你爹妈哪里对不起你吗?

你发的那么多帖子里,唯一能称得上史实的只有一点,1901年大选后,实施白澳政策是工党和保护主义党结盟的先决条件,这一点没有人否认。问题在于你自己脑补了很多私货,并且把这些私货当成了史实,比如你认为保护主义党本来不支持白澳政策,完全是被工党逼的。但实际上,国会网站上说得清清楚楚,早在工党成立之前,保护主义党和自由贸易党就在新州和塔州搞了地方性的白澳政策,这两个党对于实施白澳政策的热情并不在工党之下。白澳法案在国会讨论的时候,几乎是全票支持的,就算工党能胁迫保护主义党,难道还能胁迫身为反对党的自由贸易党?你的脑补完全不符合史实。
论坛发帖对事不对人,得罪之处请见谅!

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